Talking About AT&T's Internet Filtering on AT&T's The Hugh Thompson Show
Yesterday, I was invited to talk about gadgets onThe Hugh Thompson Show, a television-style talk show sponsored exclusively by AT&T for distribution on the online AT&T Tech Channel. I eventually did talk about gadgets, but in light of AT&T's shocking and baffling announcement of their plans to filter the internet, I thought that a much more interesting and important topic.
So that's what I talked about.
As you can see from the video, the crew ended up scrubbing the interview about half-way through. Figuring that might happen, I asked my steely-nerved friend Richard Blakeley to tape the first take. I wanted to make sure that we had a record of the event, primarily to ensure that AT&T would have no reason to try to bury the interview entirely—the same reason I am running this clip now, while discussion about what to do with my segment in post-production is surely underway.
After the crew got their wits about them—they were not very happy with me, understandably—we went on to shoot a second take, which to Hugh's credit also included not only talk of gadgets, but of network neutrality and AT&T's collusion with the NSA. I look forward to seeing that segment air on the The Hugh Thompson Show.
The crew was upset with me not only because I was making their job more difficult, but because they feared that my stunt would cost them their jobs. Everyone looked at the staff member who booked me on the show with sad eyes, assuring me that he would certainly be fired. After their initial panic at an interview gone off the rails the crew acted professionally and efficiently to continue shooting the show. If AT&T ends up letting a single person go from that crew, shame on them. What I chose to do has nothing to do with the crew or Mr. Thompson himself, who despite being visibly perturbed handled the whole mess like troupers.
The staff circled me just off-stage after the first shoot. "You realize Hugh doesn't actually work for AT&T, right? He can't speak for AT&T." I told them I understood, but reminded them the entire production is underwritten and broadcast exclusively by AT&T.
That's the point—I wasn't being a twerp just for the sake of being one. This is a critically important issue, one that deserves as much attention as can be drawn to it, especially in a venue where AT&T and its customers are sure to listen. And as the reaction of the crowd to my questions showed, no one wants AT&T rifling around in their communications. The only way to stop them from doing so is to speak up whenever we have the chance.
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Amazing and ballsy. I hope it gets through to the appropriate people, and that the folks on this show aren't punished just for you just trying to have a regular conversation about the wackadoo shit that is happening.
well done, sir.
Nice.
Reminds me of when Elvis Costello stopped mid-song on Saturday Night Live.
"I'm sorry ladies and gentlemen, but there's absolutely no reason for me to play this song" and then he launched into Radio Radio instead.
Anybody know if that's up somewhere?
Yes, it's here:
elvis costello radio radio on snl
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3664449126787634573&q=elvis+costello+snl&total=16&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5"
Joel Johnson, you're my hero.
I think the kids say "hizzzot?" Is that even how you spell it?
Joel, if I ever find myself owning a giant international communications company that sells out its customers, you are so not invited on our geek shows.
Congratulations, Joel. You made Consumerist.com !
Fantastic! You're great on camera Joel--you had the opportunity to come off as a cranky and paranoid blogger, but instead sounded reasonable and articulate. It seems queer that they booked you in the first place--apparently nobody bothered to google "at&t boing boing"--but I'm glad you got the chance to make this video, even if AT&T will never air it.
I was unaware that AT&T had its own Tech Channel. It reminds me of the old days of TV when companies would be the exclusive sponsors of entire hours of TV and the hosts and actors would do testimonials for their products.
So I'm curious, was the audience canned or "real" after all?
Nice. Good thing you tape dit yourself, the media loves to influence people by cutting pasting clips to fit thier needs. Do a background check next time.
awesome, joel. clicked thru from consumerist. you are a true patriot. if only our elected officials grew backbones & stood up for the rights we trust them to protect. then maybe there would be someone worth electing this fall.
Joel == Hero
awesome work.
Having this recording hopefully will at least make some people start rethinking certain decisions. Governments and now corporations seem to like the whole Panopticon world except when THEY are the ones caught by it, with anyone potentially having a camera these days one can't just make events as if they 'never happened'.
@Jordan: I'm not sure if the audience was shipped in from an agency, but I'm fairly certain they were, both from comments made to me by production staff and from the responses the audience members actually gave me off and on camera.
You ve done a great job.
This is exactly what we all need to be doing when the opportunity presents itself. Thanks for being a true patriot!
holy crap! THANK YOU so much for doing this -and- posting this... sunlight -is- the best disinfectant (all around the world)
good work - great call on recording it.
Nice Joel. Good stuff.
Joel Johnson, the Jon Stewart of the blogosphere.
Thanks for not being their little gadget monkey. Good job.
That reminds me of a live taping of NPR's Wait Wait Don't Tell Me where a guest author's telephone comments were scorchingly anti-Bush, but they kept the interview going until they had enough non-Bush material. The aired version was entirely sanitized.
Oh man, that video ends way too early. I SO want to hear what went down after the booming "HOLD PLEASE" voice.
Great stuff! Keep throwing monkey wrenches!
How about a high resolution easily downloaded copy of the video in a standard MPEG-4 format? perhaps host it on archive.org?
Much respect. You did the right thing
Thanks!Fantastic job!
Well done, Joel. Damn. Under the spotlight like that, no matter how well-prepared I might be to shift the discussion, I'd almost certainly fall apart in the process. You, sir, have got some cojones and we all owe you for speaking up.
Joel, You won't be invited back to that show anytime soon. Nice, but perhaps a little bit of an ambush. Do you think this will negitively affect any other invitations that you might have getting from other company-owned talk-shows? This world is very small.
this is amazing and it is sad more people in public aren't doing exactly this!
Can you imagine if we had a small army of Joel's on TV politely taking politicians to task for their thieving hypocritical behavior?
way to go Joel!!
Well done, Joel.
The directors of AT&T deserve to be sent to bed with no supper for the monitoring proposal - to put it diplomatically.
Besides, that Hugh Thompson guy is just plain embarrassing. Nice work.
Wow, that was great.
The video was great, I wish I had a band around to greet people who visit my house or my cube. That, and yell "Boing Boing!" just for the sake of it.
I, too, would like to see how the rest of the interview went. It was definitely a courageous stance to take, I wish these statements were made more often by more people, and more often than never made it into the general 'mainstream media' discussion. Still, if wishes were fishes, I'd probably never go hungry. The easiest solution is for all of us to be those people who stand up and say something.
Thank you, BoingBoing, for adding Joel to your roster!
The coolest gadgets invariably use the internet. Their use could easily be greatly disrupted by AT&T doing strange things with the network.
Ergo, I don't think Joel's direction of conversation was off topic by so much as a degree even for an explicit "gadget" segment!
Clay, he was invited to talk about gadgets, I suspect. Now, it's nice that he found a soap box, and that the message is welcome. But the message was already out there, and now he won't get invited back to that show. For every person that wants more privacy (what privacy?), I suggest they encrypt everything. Because right now everything is visible to those who want it. And that's not going to change until encryption is used by the average person. NOT going to happen.
Jeff, there are backdoor keys built into encryption schemes. Your privacy is an illusion. And while Joel did good I don't think that AT&T is too worried about him or even about BoingBoing. They have the administration and congress bending over backwards just for them. We are no threat.
so many balls with this one. Joel, I think this is an amazing precedent you are setting right here. Boing Boing has for years been an amazing editorial focal point for social technology issues on the internet. This really feels to me like the editorial strength of Boing Boing is starting to get so big that big media just want a piece. But they aren't going to get the piece they want, the fun and quirky Boing Boing, instead they are going to get the Boing Boing that doesn't back down for the sake of airtime, the Boing Boing that isn't just some easy way to promote cool gadgets, but to explore the underlying implications to the culture around those gadgets.
To me anyway, this is pretty important, and I hope you keep it up. The writings of Cory and Mark have been my primer to technology and copyfight, and are now a very strong focal point, I hope that doesn't change. Keep up the good work.
While AT&T will never air it, I'm glad that you did.
Well done, sir.
One more reason that Boing Boing Tech is fast becoming my favorite portion of Boing Boing.
Way to go Joel. Nice to see someone ask intelligent questions and actually getting a respectful conversation from the host. I think you deserve a lot of credit for bringing this up and not sounding like a kook who is easily dismissed.
They could already be watching. The how part of this story seems done.
ATT LABS
Note the part about ipsec not being a problem.
@Noen:
Jeff, there are backdoor keys built into encryption schemes.
Hrmmm... perhaps a 'citation needed' tag would be fitting here?
This is the lovely thing about open source. The source code is there for you (and many other) to read it and discover any backdoors. No need to trust any large corporations.
WIN!
0
Haha, I loved the part when he asked the audience questions and they all said "no". And then came the corporate overlords with their "hold, please. hold, please." Such a Jon Stewart moment. This needs to go out throughout the internet.
And that host bugs me to death. His mannerisms are so...odd. Who thought he would make a good host?
How do you walk with such large testicles?
@Noen: I agree with Joshb - if you think there are backdoors, expose them.
@Anonymous: ipsec not being a problem in the link you provided was limited to application performance, not reading the encapsulated data. I'm not surprised that, absent any additional obfuscation, a TCP protocol encapsulated with IPSec can still be monitored for latency, packet loss and jitter.
This was a triumph.
I’m making a note here: huge success.
It’s hard to overstate my satisfaction.
Good work mate.
this really pisses me off. sure it was a little funny, but what the hell? don't you realize that interviewer could get in A LOT of trouble? you could have cost him his JOB!
a lot of money is spent getting all this A/V equipment run and you went ahead and ruined it as a dumb prank.
how stupid! i'm unsubscribing boingboinggadgets from my rss feed.
JoshB
"This is the lovely thing about open source. The source code is there for you (and many other) to read it and discover any backdoors."
You mean like the attempt to insert a backdoor into the Linux kernal? I hope they caught every single attempt. But you don't have to alter the source code, compliers can be written so they insert a backdoor without your knowledge. Even going so far as to alter the disassembler so that you never see the altered code. So the source code for your software may be clean but the compiler may not be. RSA key generators can insert asymmetric backdoors so that the software may again be secure but the keys you generate may not be.
MS Windows is not secure and has built in hooks for the NSA. Every single cell phone is compromised and insecure. We already know AT&T and the other telecos are willing to give the government everything and now they want packet inspection too.
Where is my privacy? I don't see it anywhere.
Of course, the end game here is "Total Information Awareness". That's what the gov wants and it seems like that's what they'll get.
Hey Brian Lam, THIS is what good tech journalism looks like.
3 Things on AT&T's Proposed Net Filtering Plan
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/01/3-things-ts-proposed-net-filtering-plan
EFF Legal Director Cindy Cohn writes:
"...Finally, in an act of media heroism, Joel Johnson of Boing Boing Gadgets went on the AT&T-sponsored The Hugh Thompson Show and did the unspeakable: instead of discussing gadgets he talked about AT&T's plan to filter the internet and asked the audience whether they wanted AT&T to be reading their emails and instant messages. Not surprisingly, even the AT&T-picked studio audience thought turning the phone company into Big Brother was a bad idea. The producers stopped the interview after a few minutes, then sanitized it with another take, but Joel had a friend tape the original and posted it.
"Let's hope this is the start of a trend. The tombstone on this bad idea should read: "Internet Filtering: Killed by the Power of the Internet."
you rock, richard too.
Hey Joel
If you ever come to Budapest - I'll buy you a beer for this.
Fuckin' A!
jd
So, you're assuming AT&T will permit these pixels to move over their netwerkz ...
#46 LADYADA:
don't you realize that interviewer could get in A LOT of trouble? you could have cost him his JOB!
Shades of V for Vendetta! Do you think they might also drag him out of his house at night and "disappear" him?
a lot of money is spent getting all this A/V equipment run and you went ahead and ruined it as a dumb prank.
You really think calling out AT&T for their evil, un-American plan to monitor Internet communications is a "dumb prank?" Obviously, a majority of Boingers strongly disagree with you and consider Joel a hero for speaking up like this. This topic is no joke; AT&T's plan represents a significant threat to freedom and democracy.
how stupid! i'm unsubscribing boingboinggadgets from my rss feed.
Sorry to see you go. I recommend reading BoingBoing regularly to become better informed on the serious civil liberties fights going on right now. And, while you're at it, send a check to the EFF, too. They're suing AT&T for illegal wiretapping on behalf of all Americans, including you (assuming you are American).
That was beautiful.
I love watching corporate shills implode on themselves when faced with the reality of piece of shitness.
PeaceLove, knowing LadyAda, I'm sure she's joking. Easy to not parse if you didn't know that, though. :)
Joel may have been invited on to discuss gadgets - but as Joel knows, the ability to design and sell a new gadget that uses a network depends entirely on the network being neutral to your gadget. If AT&T can evade liability for imposing copyright restrictions, then they can likely evade liability for supporting one business model over another - depending on which way the dollar swings for them, of course.
A non-neutral network is too risky for new gadget development. No new gadgets would mean the end of "networked gadget" discussions.
Joel is dead on topic - he's just thinking long-term, not about the next gadget around the corner.
#42 ClintonD said:
"And that host bugs me to death. His mannerisms are so...odd. Who thought he would make a good host?"
I couldn't agree more. That nerd, regardless of how wealthy and/or willing he is to peddle his opinions, should never have been let out of his parents basement.
Just to add my echo to this chamber, its always best to take advantage of a golden opportunity to address issues in the public interest, especially when your 'host' doesn't want you to. So well done for speaking your conscience.
You rock the good fight, Joel. Though what's the deal with the scarf?
Joel, that's just downright inspiring. When the opportunity presents itself, I'm going to think of what you've done here, in order to lend myself the courage. To be grossly over-optimistic, maybe these corporate liars (and philosophically unethical bastards) will stop lying if they think they're going to get called on it. Right? Right.
I'm surprised no one else has said anything about the more bizarre (but subtle) point about the host attempting to spin this as a "privacy vs. security" issue. Whose security does he really think AT&T is attempting to protect?
No doubt it was a courageous act Joel, but the attention your getting here is from the choir, we already know what evils AT&T are pushing. I wonder if you didn't burn a bridge prematurely in the sense that now other potential interviewers may be hesitant to let you stand back up on the soap box, thus limiting your potential audience.
True, although I have the feeling this move was a one-bullet gun no matter which major media outlet he chose to fire it on.
... which brings us around once more to why network neutrality is so important.
If we're going to grant you the privilege of connecting your network to our public discourse, so that we may reap the benefit of that connectivity and you may attempt through competition to retain our business and earn a profit, you're going to have to agree not to filter our discourse in any way.
Major cojones, Joel. Bless you for speaking up and being articulate, reasoned, and cool-headed about it.
That's the way to do it, much love Joel
As evil as AT&T is, what would we have done without them? Or do without them? And as bad as it is to spy on someone, what would we do without spies? And as for crypto-back doors: Find them, lock them and that's that. But you know, the next big attack on a Westtern city (let's say Toronto gets hit and maybe just a few thousand die. Horribly), then watch as all the lemmings start screaming for more security. More Big Brother. "Please, Sir, may I have --less-- privacy?" We'll see. It's a very sharp, double edged blade we're playing with. The blade that castrates the Feds may be the blade that results in the death of many.
Hijacking the show was a cowardly, self-centered publicity stunt. If JJ was a hero, he’d have gone to the source; not a peripheral event. The repercussions of his behavior have affected people who trusted him to honor his word as a guest of the Hugh Thompson Show. I see no heroism in this deception.
Absolutetrust (61):
Telling yourself you're not speaking up now because you need to preserve your ability to speak up later is one of the ways mainstream journalists have neutered themselves.Joel spoke up now. Does that mean he won't get invited to be a guest on other shows? Maybe, maybe not. But the only way that can stifle discussion of the issue is if no one else speaks up.
The point is to get the information out to the public. Lots of people can do that. All AT&T and its friends can do is keep Joel away from channels they control.
Joel spoke up. Good on him. Go thou and do likewise.
Joel for President!
great job Joel!! That took guts and the fact that you maintained a professional, well mannered demeanor is commended also. Way to go!!
That's the reporting with balls I've been missing from the mainstream media. How could he have gone on that show, speaking for boing boing, and not said anything? There's no deception there, anymore than there was deception by Stephen Colbert at the Press Corps dinner.
Jeff said:
There is a very strong profit motive in providing networks and network connectivity. Thousands of small ISP's have flourished over the years, and been bought up by larger companies. If AT&T had not done what they did, someone else would have. If they went away, someone else would replace them. They aren't providing something that only AT&T is capable of providing. They also didn't begin the network - that was done for them by the military first and academia second. So they're a late comer, disposable party. If they abuse their position, they aren't going to continue to be in that position - hopefully.
Nicely done. Excellent! You have my full support - and the more people that step up and say "enough" to these creeps the better.
This was a rude and unprofessional thing to do.
If you have an ethical problem with AT&T, don't go to their show and don't buy there products. You have opportunities, to get your word out, other than AT&Ts own show. You knew that you had no chance to get this broadcastes (that's why you taped it), only a chance to draw publicity to this site. To show "look how gutsy I can be"!
To hi-jack a show and get the person who invited you into trouble is incredibly rude. Quote: "If AT&T ends up letting a single person go from that crew, shame on them". I say, shame on you, for getting people who invited you to their house into trouble, for lying and deceiving your host.
You broke a fundamental law of guest behavior.
The good/evil semantics learned in Star Wars and Lord of the Rings do not always apply in the real world.
Sincerely,
Andreas Keller
You sir. Are the man!
I'll second the rude and unprofessional part. I'll also add that it was ineffective. You come off like a dork. Leave the media appearances to people who can present themselves and their cases well.
awesome! so proud!
That was really great.
[this is good]
Very [good] indeed.
Having read the comments I was surprised how polite and innocuous this was. I also thought that Hugh Thompson (in spite of seeming to have a really weird voice) handled it really well, responding quickly with some cogent analysis.
Obviously there isn't a culture of open debate in the same way that perhaps we have here in the UK. Listening to the BBC you are constantly bombarded with journalists asking BBC management awkward questions, to the point of it seeming like excessive navel gazing.
We need to take this kind of courage and expand on it constantly. Yes Men-style pranks are the least we should be doing to these kinds of corrupt bastards.
AT&T pulled the plug on their "tech channel" a few days ago. As someone who hasn't had a nice time with them (re: atttechchannelsucks.com) I for one am rejoicing.
This little incident, Joel. Is just icing on the cake.
And to Andreas Keller, the poster above me...stop trying to guilt trip the guy. If only half of these bullshit shows had a reality check this world would be a better place.
I love that you did this. However I think a better tactic would've been instead of trying to take control of the interview, gradually steer the conversation that way, until you've actually built a case before you ever say "AT&T".
Anyway that's easier said then done, and what you did took a lot of courage and conviction, you are to be applauded.
Joel--many kudos. And thanks, Ian Mxyz--I thought I was the only one who thought host Hugh Thompson deserved credit as well. Guys, give yourself a dose of Chris Matthews, Bill O'Reilly, other FOX news, to find out how awful a hostile, aggressive host can be. Hugh let Ian talk, and drew him out--as well he should have--but knowing he could be angering his superiors. As the video makes clear, it wasn't *Hugh* who stifled the conversation--it was that menacing voice from above.
He may have a weird voice, but he strikes me as a class act.
Also compare this to David Letterman (who I like), and Harvey Pekar, when Harvey went off on GE. Letterman mocks Pekar and gets angry. Hugh engages Joel & doesn't lose his cool at all.
If AT&T goes through with this idea, they can kiss my cell phone business goodbye.
Why is everyone so surprised that this is a goal set by AT&T. Rmember folks, this is the company that brought you illegal wiretapping, then told you it was legal , then sought immunity in case the proverbial excrement hits the proverbial fan. A company working so close to the governmenet of these United States cannot be trusted. Bring them down, people. Sell your stock. End your connection with them. Show the US Government and the world that this will not be tolerated. Remember freedom? Remember liberty? Remember justice? Rememeber...?
Would anyone want FedEx or UPS to open their packages to check what was inside? Freakin' Thought Police, bro.
Courageous, man! Plain courageous, and I'm glad you documented it. Shame on AT&T and thanks for bringing this topic to my attention!
-J
A True PATRIOT
Joel! Well done. Thank you for fighting the corrosive effects on our freedoms.
Good job Joel. People who have the coconuts to stand up for "real" freedom and engage the establishment are nowadays few and far between. Thank you for fighting.
So, if AT&T goes after you or even the show's crew, who's going to be the voice of the people and have them brought before the supreme court for violating the constitution?
Regarding Comment #10 by MRB398:
"Nice. Good thing you tape dit yourself, the media loves to influence people by cutting pasting clips to fit thier needs. Do a background check next time."
At first, MRB398 seems to praise Joel Johnson, but then concludes the comment by suggesting a Background Check? WTF? Does this mean AT&T should have "checked out" Joel Johnson before booking him? Perhaps looking for a check-mark in the 'Blacklisted' box?, which MRB398 seems to think Joel should now have 'on his record'! With supporters like that, who needs enemies?
This writer seems to have the mindset of the AT&T Thought Police (and maybe he/she is one of them looking in?). Background checks are just the sort of thing that creepy, fascist, gestapo-types really love to suggest for all of lifes problems - and it's a major method they will try to use one day, to crush all dissent from the party line....
P.S. to MRB398: check your spelling next time...
Joel, I think what you did was great. Will you be cancelling your iphone service with AT&T in protest of their plans? I am sure this will affect any emails sent or recieved on your phone.